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Thread: Admin Template Redesign

  1. #21
    the_sandking's Avatar
    the_sandking is offline hadron remnant - Moderation Fachmann
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    Default Re: Admin Template Redesign

    Quote Originally Posted by jntcomputers View Post
    For whatever reason, if you build a site, and all your time is gone, and it isn't complaint according to the W3C, but looks fine in all the major browsers, why should you spend even 1 hour validating when the client is happy and got what they paid for?

    Because you are representing yourself to the public as a professional so that people will trust you. If you actually are a professional, it won't require extra time to perform your tasks properly. You are attempting to defend a position that advocates "what the customer does not know won't hurt them" which is hucksterism plain and simple.

    Because people like me (professionals) will be able to easily demonstrate and explain to your clients that you cut corners but charged them full price.
    (unless your contract says otherwise, see my previous post)

    It's like paying a roofer to reshingle your house and it leaks afterwards. Then, when you call him on it, the roofer complains that he is always really busy so fixing your roof (properly) so it wouldn't leak would have cost you extra, so he was actually doing you a favor.
    "Much of what looks like rudeness in hacker circles is not intended to give offense. Rather, it's the product of the direct, cut-through-the-BS communications style that is natural to people who are more concerned about solving problems than making others feel warm and fuzzy."

    "We gotta' go to the crappy town where I'm a hero!"
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  2. #22
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    Default Re: Admin Template Redesign

    but when you are doing this as your "full-time" job and not as a hobby
    If you are going to make something your full time job, you should be fully educated so you can do that job right.

    I have 2 full time jobs. My regular day job and web design/developement. I actually spend more time on web development that I do at my regular job so it is not just a hobby. There are plenty of ways I could cut corners at both jobs but I don't. Cutting corners is unprofessional and usually comes back to haunt to you down the line. With 19 years in the business world and providing services to the public, I have seen it happen many times and most of the people that did it, were asked to seek other employment.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Admin Template Redesign

    It's like paying a roofer to reshingle your house and it leaks afterwards. Then, when you call him on it, the roofer complains that he is always really busy so fixing your roof (properly) so it wouldn't leak would have cost you extra, so he was actually doing you a favor.
    Not actually, because validation is not the equivelent of a leaky roof, since a roofers reason for being is to make sure your roof doesn't leak.

    Because people like me (professionals) will be able to easily demonstrate and explain to your clients that you cut corners but charged them full price.
    Obviously you have never dealt with any of my clients! (also, like the connotation that some of us are not professionals)

    If it is such a "big deal" to validate, then why does the the basic OR install not validate http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=ht...Inline&group=0

    I am guessing because someone ran out of time or thought it wasn't a big deal (or it simply got overlooked), not because of skill level or professionalism... ???

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Admin Template Redesign

    Quote Originally Posted by jntcomputers View Post
    Not actually, because validation is not the equivelent of a leaky roof, since a roofers reason for being is to make sure your roof doesn't leak.
    And a professional web developer's job is to develop and/or provide a compatible application that uses (and validates) to industry standards. So what exactly is the difference? You continue to sound like the shade-tree mechanic who after rebuilding an engine has a few internal parts left over but figures it won't matter because the engine still runs.

    Quote Originally Posted by jntcomputers View Post

    Obviously you have never dealt with any of my clients! (also, like the connotation that some of us are not professionals)
    O.K. I'll just say it plainly for you. You are continuing to defend the position that "what the customer does not know won't hurt them" and "I'm far too busy to do things correctly", therefore, you are an amateur, and not a professional. The only other possibility is that you are a professional, but you are choosing to fleece your clients who are trusting you to do a professional job.

    As long as your clients know ahead of time that you aren't going to bother to take a couple of minutes to check your work for validation, what you provide them with in the end really doesn't matter ethically. If your clients are cool with paying you to learn your trade as you go along that's also their problem as long as full disclosure has been made so they can make an informed choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by jntcomputers View Post
    If it is such a "big deal" to validate, then why does the the basic OR install not validate http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=ht...Inline&group=0

    I am guessing because someone ran out of time or thought it wasn't a big deal (or it simply got overlooked), not because of skill level or professionalism... ???
    I am not involved with the development of OR, or the management of the demo site, but since there is only a single validation error in the template you linked to, I would have to assume that it was a simple oversight (because validation is performed regularly against the OR code base). I am certain one of the OR devs will repair it promptly, given notice.

    I can see you fielding the argument that now and again a validation error or two gets past you because of deadlines, but you don't even bother to check without charging for it. If one of your clients discovers validation errors in something you developed for them, would you fix it without charging them additional $$ since they performed the check for you? Your client would of course have to actually know they were responsible to check your work for flaws (and won't) because they are counting on you to be a professional.

    At the end of the day, it is your competition that benefits the most from you taking your present position, because your competition can more easily criticize your work, and demonstrate to prospective and past clients why using you is (or was) a bad idea. Also, if you don't ever want or expect repeat business, by all means keep declaring publicly that code validation does not matter because you are too busy.
    "Much of what looks like rudeness in hacker circles is not intended to give offense. Rather, it's the product of the direct, cut-through-the-BS communications style that is natural to people who are more concerned about solving problems than making others feel warm and fuzzy."

    "We gotta' go to the crappy town where I'm a hero!"
    -Hoban 'Wash' Washburne 2485-2519


    "When you’re born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you’re born in America, you get a front-row seat.."
    -George Carlin 1937-2008

    New to Open-Realty® and need help? Check the:
    -OR DOCUMENTATION -

    Important: Read this at least once in your lifetime
    How To Ask Questions The Smart Way

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Admin Template Redesign

    is this thread and example of what the sandbox is to be about? wow!

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Admin Template Redesign

    Quote Originally Posted by alsmith View Post
    is this thread and example of what the sandbox is to be about? wow!
    No, probably not.

    We very much derailed from the OP's original thread and intention didn't we? Should probably just let this thread die.

    Kudos to the OP for wanting to enhance the admin section, OR's admin section can always use sprucing-up.
    "Much of what looks like rudeness in hacker circles is not intended to give offense. Rather, it's the product of the direct, cut-through-the-BS communications style that is natural to people who are more concerned about solving problems than making others feel warm and fuzzy."

    "We gotta' go to the crappy town where I'm a hero!"
    -Hoban 'Wash' Washburne 2485-2519


    "When you’re born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you’re born in America, you get a front-row seat.."
    -George Carlin 1937-2008

    New to Open-Realty® and need help? Check the:
    -OR DOCUMENTATION -

    Important: Read this at least once in your lifetime
    How To Ask Questions The Smart Way

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Admin Template Redesign

    Personally, I don't know why validation means anything to anyone. I find it to be the most useless thing in the website development world aside from scrolling marquees and page transitions. Why is this? Well, you need to look at who actually bothers to validate their pages... When was the last time you saw a major corporation validate their website? Here are a few examples of companies that have some of the best website development firms in the world working to deliver mind-blowing, effective website solutions: WalMart.com (240 errors), SamsClub.com (5 errors), OfficeMax.com (251 errors), HP.com (94 errors), Yahoo.com (34 errors) and Microsoft.com (187 errors). Now, for the sake of argument, let's say these companies are stale and don't gear toward the trendy people that may believe W3C validation means something. Well, not even Apple.com (2 errors) is validated. All of that aside, not even Google.com (48 errors) is a validated website. Please, tell me how Google and Yahoo could possibly care at all for W3C validation, in regard to SEO or usability, when they don't even follow it themselves. The only people that care about W3C validation are website developers that try to sell it, or offer as a value-added feature, to potential clients in order to bolster their image during a consultation.

    Honestly, what makes the validated service that the self-acclaimed professionals on this board have to offer better than what is being provided by the development firms hired by these companies? The next time you have a meeting with a new client, please don't forget to *fully* disclose that you offer a validated service that not even Fortune 500 companies care about. I'm sure that will really stick it to the website developer that lost the business of the client you are picking up.

    Even better, I just discovered that HP.com sponsors the W3C validating engine. That is great! Nothing like cutting a check to a company that offers a validation service you completely ignore. "The W3C validators are hosted on server technology donated by HP, and supported by community donations. Donate and help us build better tools for a better web." - From the W3C validator result page.

    Maybe some of the W3C gurus on the message board need to submit resumes to the corporations mentioned in this post. I'm sure they will scream with delight when they find out the benefits they are losing from not being validated. Let's not be political with responses, if you wish to argue my opinion then please do not pick my weakest argument in an attempt to devalue my post.

    Here is my latin phrase: Qui cura.
    Last edited by webcitz; 05-13-2009 at 05:21 AM. Reason: Additional clarity

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Admin Template Redesign

    We let this thread die back in Feb.

    Dead horse is dead.

    Qui cura? Apparently you do.
    "Much of what looks like rudeness in hacker circles is not intended to give offense. Rather, it's the product of the direct, cut-through-the-BS communications style that is natural to people who are more concerned about solving problems than making others feel warm and fuzzy."

    "We gotta' go to the crappy town where I'm a hero!"
    -Hoban 'Wash' Washburne 2485-2519


    "When you’re born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you’re born in America, you get a front-row seat.."
    -George Carlin 1937-2008

    New to Open-Realty® and need help? Check the:
    -OR DOCUMENTATION -

    Important: Read this at least once in your lifetime
    How To Ask Questions The Smart Way

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